13 thoughts on “Warming you up for your abusive husband”

  1. This article was both helpful and painful in showing me the consequences – real and potential – my own stupid dalliance with patriarchy can cause.

    http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/09/finding-my-no/

    I know Recovering Grace was written for the victims of Gothard, but there are many similarites: both are patriarchal, have legalistic expectations they both mask as warring in the ‘culture war’, shun those who leave, mock those who can’t keep up with their ‘standards’, and believe their brand of Faith is the best one that all others should emmulate.

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  2. Philip, I have friends very involved with Recovering in Grace, and believe me, there is no comparison with the CREC.

    In fact, CREC (at least Doug Wilson and all those I know in Moscow) are not “Patriarchal.” I know the difference. Doug Philips of Vision Forum would be.

    Legalistic is an accusation that any “conservative” group could have attached to them, and kind of like pride, there is a little bit of it in everyone. But I think they strike a good balance, and are not “legalistic.” In fact, they’re slightly libertine compared to, say, the OPC.

    Shun those who leave? Only the bitter one’s see it that way. I have family members who left Christ Church for another more charismatic church. I was kind of sad they did, but they most certainly weren’t shunned. I know several Christ Church members who, for one reason or another, “moved on” from Christ Church – they’re still great friends with the community. I also know a few who left in a huff with great bitterness…and they somehow see a personal attack and shunning in everything Doug Wilson does.

    Mock those who can’t keep up with their standards?
    Some favorite sayings from Doug Wilson:
    “God takes you where you are, not where you should have been.”
    “God draws straight with crooked lines.”
    “Are you a sinner? Good! This Lord’s Table is for you! You qualify!”
    “Lower the standard until they love the standard.” (referring to kids and parenting).
    This is all very anti-legalistic talk.

    Brand of Faith is the best? You bet! You don’t think the same about yours??.. Protestant, and proud of it!

    Sola Fide.

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  5. Yeah, it’s just that you’re wrong, Man from Moscow. Wilson is a patriarchal, masculinist, complementarian in theology and in practice. That is as indisputable as is the fact that he has never recanted, much less apologized for, SSAIW. It’s not just that he’s “not egalitarian.” It’s that he IS utterly opposed to egalitarianism in sexual and other social relationships. He is patriarchy’s greatest defender and greatest beneficiary on the Palouse. Which, if you were paying attention here at home, you would know. Sadly, you’re not, and you don’t.

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  8. Moscowan,

    Look, my friend, I’ve spent time in Oak Brook and Moscow (Mecca and Medina?) and have friends who wrote for Recovering Grace while I went to NSA. I have spent over four years in both Gothard’s program and Wilson’s. When it comes to legalism, I know to which I refer. And the two are of the same pod. And from both pulpits I have heard many sermons describing the congregants as the light of the world and the salt of the earth based on their own righteousness. And likewise, from both, I have heard that those who can’t keep up should find weaker congregations who would accept them in their weakness.

    And when I first arrived in Moscow, Doug went to great lengths to explain why he wasn’t Gothard. Maybe I should have seen that he was covering his behaviors.

    The CREC isn’t Patriarchal? Are you shitting me? Bring your wife to the next Congregational Meeting, Heads of Household meeting or whatever you have in your area. Let me know how she was admitted in attendance, how she was permitted to hear discussion of the issues of the church, and how her opinions were allowed to be voiced. Because when I was in Moscow and other CREC churches, my wife was refused point blank from hearing these leadership discussions lest she ‘speak out’ against them. And when I raised issues in front of the women in my local CREC church I was rebuked for ‘discussing dirt in front of the women in the church.’

    So . . . Patriarchy much?

    Regarding legalism, do you need some examples? Excellent. I have many. How do you view those who choose public education?

    In both Gothard and Wilson, those were anathema. Anyone who refused to shell out thousands of dollars (or the same In time) weren’t quite up to snuff in fellowship.

    How about people who chose to date over Courtship?

    In both Gothard and Wilson, those were anathema – even when the courtees were approaching thirty and desperate for the marriage bed.

    How about Heads of Household?

    In both, albeit differently, both were obligatory. Heck, show me a CREC church where the women get the news of the church directly vs. Mediatorially though their Priestly Head. My wife could not attend congregational meetings in Moscow or elsewhere, lest she ‘speak up’ and violate some biblical command. Can your wife attend a Heads of Household meeting? Even if she promises to be silent? And if not, why not? And if not, how are you supposed to get her HONEST counsel? (Or are you a single NSA student out of his league? If so, be a good boy, shut up, and go drink a beer in the corner.)

    And, cutely for my purposes, whenever anyone challenged the program, one quickly found quotes from the cult leaders citing how they loved their mothers. Not that they would listen to them, since they were women and all, but you know: Apple pie, patriarchy, baseball and all that. Funny how that’s what you did: quote how the cult leader loves his mommy and ask how I could oppose that.

    Now I have done the only honest thing I can do: I left my role as an officer and member in the CREC (largely because of the assholes who came out of the Grayfriars program whose messes I was ‘tasked’ with cleaning up) because I got tired of the abuses via patriarchy, obsession with power, legalism, lack of ministry, failure to love their sheep, and general abdication of true shepherding of their sheep while continuing to draw a fat paycheck as their parishioners fled from them.

    Look, dude, I have always been the guy whom churches looked to as an example. I’m the guy who sacrifices himself for the betterment of the whole, the good, the flock. Even in the CREC I was that guy. But when I tell you that they are, by and large, patriarchal, legalistic, Gothardite, and assholes, I bring with me a bushel of facts, names, experiences and truth.

    And last: shunning. Yes, the CREC practices shunning. I have worked very hard to stay involved in my former congregations lives. They are happy to go to lunch when I invite, buy, treat, show hospitality, invite them over for dinner, and I have done so dozens of times – but have yet to see that reciprocated. One exception, the asshole of a pastor we left the church over keeps reaching out to ask if he can help us find a new church and to ask why we haven’t submitted ourselves to new leadership yet.

    If he only spent ten minutes on this site, and seen how dozens of these memes apply to him directly, he might understand why I don’t take him up on that offer. So am I bitter? Maybe. Or maybe I’m just tired of seeing the thousands of hours I have volunteered to the CREC be wasted by worthless leaders to mock parishioners, trash outsiders, and not advance the kingdom of God.

    Phil

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  9. Ummmm, Moscowan, did you really refer me, after denying that Wilson is a patriarchalist when I said he was, to a YouTube cartoon? Really? THAT’S your answer? You make a point, I disagree with point, provide an explanation of why I disagree with your point, and you refer me to a “says who, says you, neener-neener-neener” cartoon? Am I supposed to call you a boogerhead now? I don’t remember the rules, as it’s been about 47 years since I’ve engaged with anyone on that level. Perhaps, once I return from my trip (Halloween Day), you could meet for a beer. I have no pigtails to dip into inkwells, though, and wouldn’t want you to flick a spitball at me, but I’d be willing to give it a try.

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  10. Phil,
    Heads of households and women? No problem. Last meeting I went to there were 3 women, among about 25 men. Sure, outnumbered, but it’s head of households, and simply the form of government CREC church choose.

    Public education? Raising your kids in the nurture and admonition of the Lord is the command. How you do it is up to you. Hard to do in Publish School, but not impossible. I could imagine sending my kid for a while for one reason or another – it would be a gamble with the commandment of God to send them the whole way, but, again – between you and God.

    Not sure what your experience was… You admitted you’re probably bitter. I’ve learned that all men our sinful – yes, even Doug Wilson. I know that. I don’t think he’s perfect by any means. In fact, I can think of several things where I think he is in error. But he’s a godly man. Seek God in this. If you are bitter with the CREC, go somewhere else for help first. Talk to a pastor about it. But don’t let bitterness grow and consume you.

    And yes, I have a wife and small posse of kids. I’ve been in other denominations, and lived in other parts of the country.

    Keely, you didn’t really respond, you just called him a bunch of loaded words. I sort of agree with some of them… like complementarian for example. In other words, how do I even respond to that tirade?

    SSAIW? He fully recanted of the citation errors, and republished it in Black and Tan, fixed. So….what was the point?

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  12. Moscow man, you twist my words so artlessly it is clear you lack the intelligence I require to continue debate. And while you’re at it, please learn the difference between are and our, Public and Publish, and a godly man and a man who runs a ‘seminary’ that trains assholes.

    I’m very happily at a new church. When I invite my pastor over for beers and we discuss the CREC, he is amused. We laugh. We smile. And then we discuss how to work with our neighbors who need to hear about Christ. Because that’s really what’s important, not the ungodliness of husbands and wives are snapping naughty pics for each other.

    Night,
    Phil

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  13. Moscowan, I have to agree with Phil — you appear to be unable to grasp the rudiments of the discussion at hand, tragically calling to mind the adage “don’t get involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.” I’m sorry, but your failure to be honest — do you really think Kirkers have a choice to send their kids to “government schools” and continue, unimpeded and unmolested, in fellowship? — makes it well nigh impossible to debate you. And here’s a thought: That “form of government” CREC churches choose? It elevates men to a governing status above women; women participate in HOH meetings only — ONLY — if they’re living without the “covering” of men. Yes, that IS a form of church government — and it’s one that belies your contention that there’s no patriarchy here, folks.

    I trust you didn’t ask mom and dad to invest thousands in any classical Christian education involving debate or rhetoric, Moscowan, because I’d feel just terrible for them. It appears not to have sunk in. Not even a lil’ bit.

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